Sonic Spindash Role-Playing :: View topic - Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system

(19:39:57) psikeout: The idea for mine would be that it is natural progression purely linked to what the characters have done. Running a lot will, like with a real person, increase stamina or footspeed or both to a reasonable maximum over time. Non-athletic actions will have nothing to do with it. I think this much is fairly obvious.

(19:40:06) psikeout: The idea I would suggest and employ for Ben's (if given the authoritarian, tyrannical choice to do so) would be some sort of item or technology to blame these seemingly random effects on. That is to say, we will have characters who are gaining strength or whatever in ways that will seem random from an in-character standpoint, if noticed. The easiest thing to do is to blame it on an outside force. So, what if someone takes these new emeralds and finds some way to synthesize the material into some sort of... bio-enhancing technology?

Author:	Seafarinhare [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system
Before I begin, note that the numbers provided are simply for examples' sake. Nothing's set in stone. I know that some of us(namely Matt since I remember a discussion we had) have been wracking our brains about how to do character progression(I guess in a more objective way than we have). It's not much of role play if characters are static with no real advancement in the skills and abilities catagory. I decided to start a group-wide discussion on this, since I'm bored, and I should be packing right now... ehem Okay, so my proposal is a point-based system. Hold the judgements till I'm done. As Matt and Mie may recall from our talk, I feel that should be handled at the end of an arc, or even after a set number of threads that the character in question has been involved in. That brings into question how to fairly and objectively allocate star ratings to players. I think the best way to do this, since not everyone in the RP is terribly savvy in the combative side, would be to look at the character's involvement in the thread, and have a solid point table to give them their "EXP", so to speak. The big question at this point is, "How does one acquire EXP, anyways?" That's where this gets tricky. I'm thinking that you should get EXP for a great number of contributions. But that's the only real stipulation. It has to be a contribution. For example, Dispatching an enemy will grant a player experience, but you also get experience for aiding in the dispatch of the enemy. Some recent events even bring to mind ways to get EXP, such as hacking terminals, hijacking enemy vehicles, helping allies who can't swim. Things that contribute to your allies, and your character's own advancement when there's conflict involved. Hell, even being sneaky and stealthing your way through some area could help you acquire EXP. Of course, this also requires that someone keep track of that stuff per thread. It will have to be narrowed down what gets exp, so there's no argument. For a quick off the top of my head bullet list, here is what can get you EXP in a thread: -Dispatching an enemy -Assisting in the dispatch of an enemy -Helping a teammate -Hacking/lockpicking/engineering feats -Hijacking enemy vehicles/disarming -Successful stealth attempts And to make it so one person doesn't advance faster than the other simply because of his skill set, all of these feats will bring about the same amount of EXP acquisition. There's that, but then, what do you DO with your newfound points? Spend them! You don't get paid in Star Ratings, but instead, you use your EXP to acquire star ratings. Let's say, for example's sake, a feat gives a player 3 EXP. Here's a table for purchasing stars(escalating cost!) : 1 Star: 20 EXP 2 Stars: 40 EXP 3 Stars: 60 EXP 4 Stars: 80 EXP 5 Stars: 100 EXP Example: My character stars with a Strength rating of 2. I have enough exp to add a star to it(20). If I want to bring it up again later, it'll cost me 40 for one star, and if I were to spend my EXP to get 2 stars at once, it'd be 60 upfront. Each Star Rating is exclusive, so if I bought two stars, but one for Strength, and one for Endurance, it'd be 40 in all. Reminder: These numbers are NOT set in stone. They are just there to give a general gist of what I'm thinking. I feel that there should be a cap to how much EXP a character can spend on a star rating to avoid 5 stars all around on characters. This is kind of where my idea hits a snag. Discuss!

Author:	Greens [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system

Author:	psikeout [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system
So weird (and incredibly timely!) that you would bring this up today. It just happened to pop back into my head today, too, and I was talking to Mie about it earlier. A lotta good thought in this. Quantifying things is a good way to ensure absolutely equal treatment across the board in respect to things like this. At the same time, I see downsides to it, too. Downsides enough to definitively say it isn't worth it? No. But I am gonna look at them, as well as a possible alternative. Okay. For one thing, your idea sounds very gamey. I have no problem with gameyness, otherwise our characters wouldn't have star ratings like you'd expect to find in a video game manual or something. This particular downside isn't in how it feels, though, but instead in how, unlike a video game, nothing here is automated. This means players would genuinely need to keep a tally on everything, and someone in charge of things would need to keep track of everybody, too. Am I saying anyone here is necessarily likely to game the system? No, but with stuff like this, we can't design completely around goodwill assumptions, either. New people are gonna come and go, and you just never know, and it's better to avoid the stinks in advance. It could still work, though, if someone didn't mind the tedium, and we could avoid the arguments of "yes my character did so do that look at the 3rd sentence of paragraph 2 in post 1284!" And even then, where does, say, hacking or something like that come into play when it comes to boosting strength, or stamina? The logical connections could start to be tenuous. So, it's a lot of busywork, and could have some disputable elements. Besides that, there is the point you already partially brought up, which is the complexity of deciding how much is enough for one stat. Where's the line for how tough a character of a certain stature, shape, and "construction" can get, etc., etc.? Or how fast? Or how agile, with what kinds of agility? When we quantify one thing, we may find ourselves needing to quantify other things, possibly leading to a slippery slope of numbers and spreadsheets and other things John would enjoy way too much—Or possibly not. It just depends. There could be a very simple solution for it I haven't thought of yet. In short... The Good: - Encourages doing story-significant actions—People might actually kind of fight about getting to do stuff, which would be a fresh change - Encourages action all around—Less "follows" and more "looks for something, anything useful to do" - A definite sense of "advancement" in a very palpable way - Mostly equal opportunity for everyone, but more on that below The Bad: - Tedious for the player, tedious for the admin to verify - Exploitable, or, at the least, disputable, with lots of additional rules needed - More skilled and capable characters will do more significant actions and thus become yet more capable (i.e. The progression of a character like Rock, versus one like Mako, when Rock isn't even the kind of character who really needs to progress very far in a star-rating sense anyway) That said... I'm suspending my own vote on it one way or another. The idea deserves to be developed more before decisions are made either way, I think, so I'll let you guys have your way with that thought. Now, my own idea, that I just thought of today? Pretty simple, really. We make a subforum in the character center or wherever dedicated to character stat development. At the end of a major thread, or a story arc, or any general "break in the action" after a lot of significant action has happened, any player can make a post saying: - "Yo, my character Jay-Zee da Peacock should totally get some mad stars after that last arc" - "He threw this car, and beat up this mofo, and got smashed under a fallin' tree, then got up early and made breakfast for errybody next mornin', slavin' over a hot volcanic oven" - "So because of them wordz I wrote up there, I think his strength rating should change from this to this, and his toughness should go from this to this." Then if it's sound, and is fair, and nobody has objections after a couple days of the thread being up, blammo, it's added. End of story. If anybody does have any objections, they can post in the thread, or privately tell somebody like me or whoever else wants to help manage this thing and we'll say it anonymously for them. It then gets adjusted so that it is fair, or the objection gets shot down by others saying "no I think this is fair." I think we're a civil enough bunch to make the pseudo-democratic approach work without leading to giant arguments, but, again, that's something that could easily change in time with new folks and new characters and what not, so I don't know. DISCUSS MORE.

Author:	Mie [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system
TOO MANY WORDS TO ADD TO TONIGHT. I will give my full two cents-plus ten dollars tomorrow when I'm waiting around for the social security office to open.

Author:	psikeout [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system
Here's a rad thought I had after sleeping on it. What if we give both a try? Basically, if a player like the points and incentive system of Ben's suggested approach, he or she can use it. Or, if that individual doesn't like numbers or keeping track of lots of specifics, he or she can use my method. Just not both. It means folks need to come together and determine how to make the points-based system balanced and not too uber-fast. Scaling it and balancing it may involve trial and error, no doubt, but it could work, and I'm willing to let the creativity flow, and not get in the way of that too much. Furthermore, if anyone's still bothered like I was by the idea of why doing these particular acts could improve a character's ratings in seemingly unrelated ways, I actually may have a potential in-character explanation for it. It's not a perfect idea, but it's something, and I can elaborate more if folks are actually interested in doing this.

Sonic Spindash Role-Playing http://sonic.spindash.net/forums/

Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system http://sonic.spindash.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=80	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Rachel [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system
Cool. both ideas are very cool. The point system would need the most work here: The points aquired in skills should only equate to skills. (hacking, engineering, lock picking) would give you Skill points to give you the ability to better those skills. This would apply to fighting as well. A character that starts out unable to defend themselves but starts throwing punches anyway should be granted skill points accordingly.It's a headache to think that we'd have to add two different sets of points for each character but it would remove the problem with Character A just got stronger because he picked a lock. in the matter of Ben's list of 'prices' for stars. I think I'd want to keep the scale and cut it in half. Ben wrote: Here's a table for purchasing stars(escalating cost!) : 1 Star: 20 EXP 2 Stars: 40 EXP 3 Stars: 60 EXP 4 Stars: 80 EXP 5 Stars: 100 EXP The only way this works, is if those costs are per star SLOT not star. This person is then paying according to the actual power of the character. I would scale up these numbers and add half stars in there as well. My example would be for this... 1/2 Star: 20 EXP 1 Star: 30 EXP 1 1/2 Star: 40 EXP 2 Stars: 60 EXP 2 1/2 Stars: 80 EXP 3 Stars: 110 EXP 3 1/2 Stars: 140 EXP 4 Stars: 180 EXP 4 1/2 Stars: 220 EXP Cap! This way, a character with low ratings has a better chance to keep up and the ones with the higher stars have less of a chance to get over powered. Matt's concept on the other hand needs far less work then Bens would. Anyone wanting to raise their characters skills would have to post a thread and ask for said advancement and which would be reveiwed by the other players. Democracy is a win in this situation but there would have to be rules in regaurds to how much work would it take to get from a 3 to a 4 star rating? Maybe a mixture of the two could work. Each player submits a request for points listing the according actions from the thread. Each action is then assigned points (it's laughable to try and come up with a master list for this ahead of time. But a rough idea of the value of ones actions would be required.) the responses to the thread would be either approval or disapproval for what actions should see reward. And points are given accordingly. Each Character (hm, or Player maybe) should have their own thread. and the first post in each thread could be edited to list the current point value of that character. As far as skills go, I think it'd be easiest to handle this purely with Matt's method and remove the points all together. If your character has been doing a lot of fighting you could then add the ability to defend ones self to the skill list after its approved much the same way points would be. Either way it sort of involves a dog and pony show after each thread. Everyone who wants to redeem their actions would have to put a thread in and list what they did. But there should be a time limit. After so long you'd loose the ability to submit requests for points from old threads.

Author:	psikeout [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system
C&Ping something I said in a chat conversation... I think the RP will be more interesting with more bells and whistles, honestly, even if they're superfluous. As long as they don't get in the way, I see no harm. That said, an opt-in system of point-based progression is something I can't see getting in the way. It should be a good thing. For that reason, if we do a points-based system at all, I would like for it to be purely optional, and have the organic, democratic option kept separate. As for "how much" a character should advance in any field each time, under my design I'd say any advancements should almost always be no more than a half star at a time in any given field (unless it's some agility or toughness property gained that must move the rating up by a whole star). Takin' it slow, y'know? And, one more C&P from the chat: Quote: (19:39:57) psikeout: The idea for mine would be that it is natural progression purely linked to what the characters have done. Running a lot will, like with a real person, increase stamina or footspeed or both to a reasonable maximum over time. Non-athletic actions will have nothing to do with it. I think this much is fairly obvious. (19:40:06) psikeout: The idea I would suggest and employ for Ben's (if given the authoritarian, tyrannical choice to do so) would be some sort of item or technology to blame these seemingly random effects on. That is to say, we will have characters who are gaining strength or whatever in ways that will seem random from an in-character standpoint, if noticed. The easiest thing to do is to blame it on an outside force. So, what if someone takes these new emeralds and finds some way to synthesize the material into some sort of... bio-enhancing technology? Whether it's something made by GUN that leaks out, or something that somebody like Dr. Henshin engineers from the Chaosol thang, it'd basically be a gem, or device, or combination thereof that enhances an individual's performance over time, allowing him or her to reach maximum potential. What would seem like random/mutative improvements in-character would actually be the player spending those points, or XP, or whatever you guys choose to call it. Thus, what we achieve: 1. Points-based system is purely optional. New people don't have to learn it if they don't want to; old members don't have to adopt it if they don't want to. It's purely for those who will enjoy it. 2. Switching to this system actually involves an in-character "toggle" (that is, obtaining and wearing the item suggested above, whatever it is), thus making it a tangible change. 3. The contingency plan is inherent in the concept. If the system proves to be burdensome, or accidentally results in power creep, we can find an in-character reason to get rid of the items and possibly reverse some of the changes, if necessary. (ONO THE STOENZ CAUSE CANCER GET RIDS OF THEM stealth retcon) 4. Ideally, for me, the items themselves are kept as a minor thing, not a major plot point, so characters won't be talking about gaining levels or suddenly feeling stronger, their device/stone/whatever won't be some gaping weakspot to aim for, and users won't be perceived as using a huge crutch. It'll just be there for the reasons explained above. Sound cool, possibly? (Also, for those familiar with the analogy... if you've played Tales of Symphonia, think Exspheres, except not plot-important, and not tied to a dark and sinister past.)

Author:	Greens [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system
That... doesn't sound too terrible, really. I think it might work.

Author:	Seafarinhare [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system
psikeout wrote: characters won't be talking about gaining levels If Badge had this item integrated into his suit, could he talk about gaining levels for 4th wall-breaking hilarity? But yes, this opt-in thing sounds fair to me.

Author:	Rachel [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system
I agree with Squishy.

Author:	Mie [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system
I have to admit that I initially had a problem with the exsphere explanation, as it sounded too video-gamey to not break the fourth wall by merely existing as a means to "gain stats for completely unrelated actions," but if we're talking about simultaneously implementing both systems, and having the distribution of skills and advancement working equally across the board, I have no problem with that. Here's where I may be overstepping some bounds, though: It's true that I don't intend to use any such system for myself, if others are going to go with the exsphere method (for want of a better, less copyright-and-franchise-infringing term), I am in favor of an idea which uses them mainly for story explanation purposes in-characters, but would still rely on a points-based system out of character. For example, yes, you can get EXP, or whatever you want to call it for hacking, or lock picking, and have that EXP apply towards something ridiculously unrelated, like running speed, but it would only be after accumulating the points necessary to purchase that extra half-star (and yes, I do agree with Rachel, that there need to be half-star increments). My problem with this is that including the "MAX" option, which I'd like to not see available for "purchase," there's only eleven slots on each given stat to boost. That being said, where's the cap? How many stars can you buy? Does it vary from character to character? This system, while it seems the most straightforward, will also require a lot more footwork, rule development, and trial and error. On the other hand, while I'm still more in favor of the firing squad forums, it's not without its share of problems, too. For example, even if I am really, really active in a thread -- Let's say in one thread, Jam takes out power wherever she's fighting, dispatches ten or twelve NPC bogeys, and -- I dunno, shields some friendlies against enemy fire. That's being pretty proactive in a thread, but what's it really worth? A whole half-star of progress? I'd hope not, especially when, like I said, there's only eleven slots to work with. I'd cap out really fast if I got even one of those slots for one lousy thread. Perhaps, then, as an alternative, instead of doing reviews after every thread, we could work out some equivalent to quarterly reviews. Maybe at the end of every arc, maybe after every three threads -- I dunno, just puttin' it out there, but I think progression after every thread would result in power creep unless we also integrated the points system there. So.... I dunno, there's my poorly organized thoughts on the matter. Implementation of either will require a lot of careful planning in order to be both fair and objective.

Author:	psikeout [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system
My own suggestion never involved a "review" after every thread. I'm not sure where I said it (if it was in this thread or in the chat) and I don't feel like surfing for it, but I did say that it would only be when the player felt that it was right for the character to gain in some way, and would probably be restricted to after the conclusion of small story arcs, or really major threads with lots of action.

Author:	Mie [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system
In that case, I'm down with it so long as one more thing is addressed. Before any of this gets greenlighted, I really want to see what the caps are. I'm proposing something that won't be flat numbers across the board, like... "You can only purchase a total of four stars (eight half stars) to distribute across your stats as you see fit," or even, "You can only purchase two stars for each stat," or anything of that nature, but more, "If you have X number of stars in Y stat, you can only purchase this many stars for that stat," and this would have course vary from character to character. What do you think of something like that?

Author:	psikeout [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system
I personally think it'd be best to leave any system of character stat progression subject to logical thought, and not merely blind bean-counting. Remember, we also have existing rules and definitions. For example: - We already have hard limits on the speed of characters with certain shapes or clothing. - Stars can't be added to "toughness" without a defined reason. Just look at how the stars work for that particular rating. Unless a character becomes morbidly obese, it's not going to get the "thick fat" halfstar, nor is it going to spontaneously become electricity or fire resistant unless there's something in place to make it make sense. - We already restrict people from using the max rating without permission, and I never thought for a moment that anyone could earn his or her way up to it without it being a pretty big deal. I would hope it'd stay that way. Valid concerns and all, but we do already have some things in place, and no matter what, I think common sense should rule. Anything numeric or point-related should be purely for entertainment, and a fun sort of incentive. Gently applied logic should still reign over everything, and prevent nonsensical changes, and I don't think that will require an exhaustive rulebook from us.

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Author:	VJeff [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Character Progression Proposal: A Point-based system
Does anybody remember those medals we had just for funsies back in the last RP? If we're gonna do this, I kinda like the idea of adding those in somehow. Those were fun to come up with.